Sowing the Seeds of Self-Reliance for Forty Years
The following is a selection of frequently asked email and Newsgroup questions for The Ark Institute's Director, Geri Guidetti. Under Construction: In the weeks ahead, this section will be formatted, expanded and indexed to allow for easy, convenient access to frequently asked questions.
Q: Geri, how do I store my garden seeds properly? A magazine article I read has me confused. (If you are short of reading time, skip to the red typeface, below--GG)
The first thing you learn when reading the existing data on seed storage is that there is no one, perfect answer to the seed storage dilemma for every kind of seed. Seed response to different storage conditions is as variable as the seeds' DNAs.The other, huge problem is that studies that are often quoted to me by other purveyors of seed who call/write me for advice on seed they sell is age. Data cited for seed storage info in USDA's Agricultural Handbook # 506, "Principles and Practices of Seed Storage" published, itself, in 1978, comes from studies done in 1900, 1927, 1929, 1939, 1953, etc. You get the idea: these are OLD studies and the technology available to investigators to study alternative gas environments of seeds and to seal them properly for the study were bad to poor.What's more, many of the studies were poorly designed. This was due to lack of rigorous/modern scientific training of the investigators who did the studies. USDA's own review, in 1978, of the existing data led them to say "...For many years research has been conducted on the effects of a partial vacuum and such gases as CO2, O2, N2 on the longevity of various kinds of seeds. The reported results from these studies are variable and in some instances appear contradictory. This confusion results from the widely divergent test methods employed by the researchers direct comparisons cannot be made between and among the various data...sealed storage cannot be directly compared with open storage because in sealed containers oxygen concentration in the atmosphere decreases, and the CO2 concentration increases with time, whereas in open storage the composition of the atmosphere remains constant. Because it is not feasible to continually adjust the compositions of the atmosphere in sealed containers, most studies have not included gas analyses. Some workers PAID NO ATTENTION TO EITHER SEED MOISTURE OR STORAGE TEMPERATURE, whereas others attempted to control one or the other...Several used air-dry seeds and room temp, both of which provide a minimum of information abut the conditions actually used. TO ACCURATELY ASSESS THE PROTECTIVE VALUE OF EITHER A PARTIAL VACUUM OR A GAS, ALL ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS HAVE TO BE CONSIDERED."The simple truth is that there is no one study that controls for all of the environmental factors that affect seed viability and longevity. Unless the magazine you site has performed or funded a new, scientifically controlled, modern study of nitrogen's effects on "x" and "y" seeds while controlling for every other factor, or unless they cite data from such a top-notch study, I would ignore such a blanket statement.Here is info from a later, scientifically controlled, and more comprehensive study done at the National Seed Storage Laboratory in the late '70s. One lot each of Great Lakes lettuce, crimson clover, safflower, sesame and hybrid sorghum seed were sealed in air, partial vacuum, CO2, N2, He, and Argon and stored at -12C, -1C, 10C, 21C and 32C. O degrees Celsius is the same as 32 degrees F, so the -1 and -12 C are the freezing temps studied.Here are brief results from the data:
"...regardless of the kind of seed, no storage atmosphere consistently gave the highest germination percentage at all temperatures for seeds of all moisture levels tested. The data also show that there are distinct differences between kinds of seed in their response to temperature and seed moisture content."At 21 deg C (approx 68 deg F), "...significant reductions in germination occurred for 4% moisture seeds under vacuum, and in air, nitrogen....(inadvertently clipped by original poster)________________________________________
Q: Are The Ark Institute's seeds vacuum-packed?
The posted reply reads as follows:
Dated : August 13, 1998 at 16:38:00
Dave, the Ark Institute's seed is not vacuum packed and should not be. The seeds are alive. A true vacuum could kill them. Overall, partial vacuums offer no advantage either. Some data from many studies: Storage in nitrogen, CO2, helium or even argon offers no advantage over air for lettuce seeds. There is no advantage under nitrogen or partial vacuum for onion seed. Cabbage seeds store equally well in air, nitrogen or partial vacuum. Dandelion seeds, ditto. Sorghum does a bit better sealed in partial vacuum than in air, CO2, nitrogen, argon or helium. Storage of HIGH MOISTURE wheat seed in CO@ or nitrogen can extend seed viability for a few DAYS. Lowering the temp extends such storage several additional weeks, but then deterioration of viability begins. For red and white clover seeds, vacuum shortens their lives. NO atmosphere tested--not air, O2, N2, CO2, helium or vacuum--was consistently or significantly better than any other for crimson clover. Soybeans did better in an oxygen- free environment and in a vacuum--an apparent exception to the other vacuum data.• Grass seed (quote): "In fact, when the seeds were subjected to an unfavorable temperture, loss of viability was more rapid for seeds packaged with nitrogen or under vacuum than with air.
Grass seed (quote): "In fact, when the seeds were subjected to an unfavorable temperture, loss of viability was more rapid for seeds packaged with nitrogen or under vacuum than with air.•Corn seed (quote): "Corn seeds containing 12 to 14 percent moisture were practically all dead after one-half to 1 year, regardless of the surrounding gas."
Corn seed (quote): "Corn seeds containing 12 to 14 percent moisture were practically all dead after one-half to 1 year, regardless of the surrounding gas."I answer so many phone calls a day on seed storage variables as a result of all kinds of erroneous information people are getting from word-of-mouth, rumor, less-than-correct sources [I'm being nice :)], that it literally eats up hours a day, but it IS important, so here is the best in-a-nutshell-summary I can offer you, AND the most reliable given available data across the many different seed varieties you are wanting to store:
• MOISTURE content is critical. In general, the lower the better. You are shooting for approximately 8-10 percent. This is in the enclosure I wrote for your seed package. It is in Suzanne Ashworth's Seed to Seed book that we suggest everyone gets. It is based on scientific data. In fact, Harrington's Thumb Rules for drying seed says that for each 1 percent reduction in seed moisture content, the time that the seed can be stored without seriously affecting germination is DOUBLED. This rule applies when seed moisture content is between 5 and 14 percent. In sealed storage, the expected life of vegetable seeds with an 8 percent moisture content could be doubled by removing 1 percent more moisture before sealing. SO, for all of you that have called me to ask if it is possible to over-dry your seed using the silica gel I recommend in the enclosure, I have answered, "no".
MOISTURE content is critical. In general, the lower the better. You are shooting for approximately 8-10 percent. This is in the enclosure I wrote for your seed package. It is in Suzanne Ashworth's Seed to Seed book that we suggest everyone gets. It is based on scientific data. In fact, Harrington's Thumb Rules for drying seed says that for each 1 percent reduction in seed moisture content, the time that the seed can be stored without seriously affecting germination is DOUBLED. This rule applies when seed moisture content is between 5 and 14 percent. In sealed storage, the expected life of vegetable seeds with an 8 percent moisture content could be doubled by removing 1 percent more moisture before sealing. SO, for all of you that have called me to ask if it is possible to over-dry your seed using the silica gel I recommend in the enclosure, I have answered, "no". I have also told you that temperature plays a big role. In general, the colder the better--freezing is the best!The latter IF and only IF the moisture content of the seed is in this low range. Water is unique it its expansion rather than contraction upon freezing. Expansion of frozen water in seeds kills them. You want dry seed and silica gel will do that for you. A rule of thumb is an amount of silica gel equal to the weight of seed in the jar.
I have tried to simplify many years of seed storage data to give you an easy-to-follow protocol suitable for prolonging viability of all of your vegetable seed varieties. For those of you who want to see some of this data firsthand, see Agricultural Handbook # 506, The U.S. Dept of Agriculture. I do hope this helps to clear up some of the misinformation and disinformation many of you are hearing from different sources/vendors. It might be a good idea to print this out for future reference. I have provided an original agricultural reference so you can check it out for yourself, too, if you like. As always, buyer beware....Geri Guidetti, The Ark Institute
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Q: Is it safe to freeze my seed?
Nicki, it is not safe to freeze seed--if you want to grow it later-- unless its moisture has been brought way down--ideally 8-10%. Like all water, the water in plant cells will expand when frozen and rupture microscopic cell inclusions and even the cells themselves. This will kill them. The 8-10% moisture is not sufficient to expand and rupture the cell and it is not a difficult level to reach, and you don't have to measure it. Silica gel, or other good desiccants, placed in sufficient quantity in a mayo or canning jar will do the job. Then the folded seed packets are placed on top of the desiccant. Let stand at room temp to dry out for 4-5 days. You do NOT have to freeze the desiccant with the seed. You can recycle it. Simply remove the very dry seed packets to another dry jar, screw on another, NEW canning lid and put the jar in the freezer. A small seed brought down to 8-10% moisture will snap cleanly between your thumb nails. A large bean seed that dry will shatter when struck with a hammer. A half-inch of silica gel in a jar will do it for lots of small seeds like carrots, cabbages, broccoli, etc. Large seeds require more, especially if you live in a moist climate and the seed has likely taken on some moisture from the air.
Now, about refrigerator storage. Most veggie seeds will last 3-5 years if kept cool, dark and dry. The cooler the better. Onions, at one year, are an exception, and lettuce at 2 years, ditto. At 40 degrees, the refrigerator will be a lot better to help meet the cool category than a 75 degree kitchen or 100 degree attic. Yet, the 40% humidity is not good for open seed. One only needs to take a look at that bowl of left over macaroni and cheese in the back of the refrigerator to see that some fungi do very well in the refrigerator. Forty percent humidity will allow fungi to grow on the surface. If you want to take advantage of refrigerator temps to store your seed, jar it with desiccant just like the freezer-targeted seed.
Oh--about just placing seed in an airtight container--this is great for VERY dry seed, but for any seed that has been absorbing moisture from ambient humidity or for seed insufficiently dried at harvest, an airtight container is a breeding ground for fungus...Geri Guidetti
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Q: What is the best way to start seeds for planting outdoors?
Maguire, you have your choice of media, pots, techniques, etc, and most will work well if you meet some fundamental requirements. First, you want to raise them in clean growth medium, that is, soil or soil-free mixtures that are relatively of fungi, bacteria and viruses that can do little seedlings in. If you choose to use garden soil, it's a good idea to heat sterilize it in an oven or microwave. The idea is to bring the moisture in the soil just up to the boiling point but not to incinerate it. When the soil is good and steamy, stop heating it, let it cool to room temp, and plant your seeds.
Soil-free, commercial mixes composed of sterilized peat, perlite or vermiculite and, sometimes, nutrients, are microbe free, but can be a bit more difficult to work with because of their resistance to or uneven wetting. The latter can be made easier and more uniform by dumping the dry mix into a clean plastic dishpan and gradually adding water while mixing thoroughly with clean hands. Work the water in, being careful not to over water. BTW, if you have a sensitive nose, you may want to wear a drugstore surgical or painter's mask as you mix it. Tiny, airborne particles of dry peat can be very irritating.
One of the most convenient seed starting products ever invented is the Jiffy-7 peat pellet. This is essentially a small, pot-sized pellet of peat wrapped in a plastic mesh "sleeve", the latter holding it together. The mesh sleeve is its only real shortcoming, IMO. These don't biodegrade. You will be picking them out of your soil next spring.
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Q: Different varieties of plants for different areas --how important is it?
In Reply to: different varieties for different areas -- how important? posted by Mikey on February 23, 1999 at 22:10:29:
Mikey, seed varieties for specific geographic areas can be VERY important, even critical, for success. Frankly, it depends on the vegetable or garden fruit, your location, and availability of selections/options for your area. Among the variables you have to consider are: length of frost-free gardening season in your specific climate, including microclimate. (I mention the latter because you would be amazed at how different microclimates can affect gardens only blocks apart.) You simply cannot grow and bring in a dry crop of 130-day dent corn for cornmeal in a 90-day gardening season without a lot of heroic efforts to start it, under cover, 40 days before the last frost. I shudder to think how many unsuspecting folks have the wrong corn for their regions. In any other year I might smile and say, that's how I learned--by making lots of mistakes. But this year, it's too late to make mistakes. No time. Don't make them.
Another is rainfall in your specific region and WHEN that rain occurs during the growing season. This is especially critical if you have too big a garden to irrigate or no water to irrigate with in Y2K or during any year. What if you have a drought? You should have drought-resistant seeds in your stocks.
Another factor when choosing seed varieties is the spectrum of plant diseases which usually affect your specific regions. Those new to gardening and, I might add, those new to the seed business, are just not aware of the vast differences in genetic resistance/susceptibility of different seed varieties to the hundreds, maybe thousands, of plant ills that can wipe out a crop. Some old varieties of seeds are far superior in broad-based disease resistance than some modern seed companies would have you think. What's more, when some new "race" or strain of disease organism--bacterial, fungal or viral--re-emerges or evolves, old non-hybrids of a wide variety of genetic lineages often have the genes for resistance. (Please see my Non-hybrid Article that I posted here a week or two ago. You can also request it by email from me directly. See address, below.) When modern genetic engineers and biotech. breeders look to artificially introduce some gene or genes for disease resistance in a seed variety, the GET those genes from stocks of older plant varieties. They have to COME from somewhere. Their goal is often to make plants more broadly adapted so their market is much bigger. You can't just look at a handful of diseases. You have to look at the whole genome of a variety. Okay, okay, I digress...
In humid areas, resistance to fungal diseases--mildews and the like--is very desirable. Some varieties of some vegetables have some resistance. This is a great ace in the hole in a particularly hot and humid season. You want to be assured that your probability of bringing in a good crop is high. In a food self-sufficiency situation, your lives may depend on it. This same argument can be made for the large number of bacterial diseases that knock plants out. You only have to see a field of ripening tomatoes turn black and die--within a week's time--once to know the horror of late blight. It happened to me. Just once. I grow blight resistant tomatoes among my many varieties just in case. I also spray with copper (approved for organic gardeners) fungicide to give all of them an even better chance of surviving such a blight.
Soil temperature is another factor. In many short-season areas, spring soil temps are generally low. Most corn varieties won't germinate or will rot in cool soil. A few can make it. You need to read/learn about these if you are choosing your own seed. Ditto green and golden beans. Most like nice, warm soil. In short season areas you will want bean varieties that can take cold feet in order to get in a crop or two of beans. If it's dry beans you are after, you definitely want to get the crop in as early as possible. Cold soil can be a deterrent. When I put together Ark's varieties for different climates, I chose a couple of good, cold-tolerant green bush bean varieties that could germinate in cool soils for those short-season areas or marginal areas. I chose some yellow beans that are great for high heat areas, etc.
The goal, Mikey, is to assemble varieties that give you the highest probability of success in uncertain weather patterns but varieties as well-adapted to your area as possible. Soil type is another factor. Heavy soils, especially clay, will not grow a nice, long, dainty carrot. One would have to grow a heavy, chunky, broad carrot or even one of the shallow-rooted, round carrots. (Examples that come to mind are Royal Chantenay and Planet or Nugget, respectively.) Sandy soil? Grow a nice, long Imperator type.
Latitude can be critical for onions. Do you need a long-day onion or a short-day onion? The difference can mean bulbs or no bulbs. If you want some onions to survive with during the winter, you don't want a few bushels of onions that get no fatter than scallions. They won't keep. You need the right onions for your geographic latitude.
Some plant varieties are better grown in spring than fall, in summer than spring. Examples: peas like cool soils and "feet". They languish in heat. An exception is Wando. It can take some heat. If you tend toward hot springs now and then, this variety would be a good bet. It would prevent you from losing a whole crop in mid-June due to a heat wave. See? The same could be said about early and late broccoli varieties. Early and late types of cauliflowers. I could go on, but I'll go on to another question.
Bottom line: yes, variety can be very important. We pay close attention to varieties and adaptability here at the Institute...Geri Guidetti
Q: Question for Geri
Hi Geri,
We had a posting on the Small Business Forum I moderate that I thought I'd like your opinion regarding. I thought your forum participants may benefit from it too. <...> denotes cutting out parts I considered less relevant. BTW Walton's non-hybrids are still on back order and UPS ain't helping the situation!
Here are excerpts from the posting:
Do you have a store of non hybrid seeds (see non hybrid seed forum) so that you can plant a crop when the lights go out? Better lay in a stock yesterday if you don't. Answer- As a real-life farmer, I have to say that all this talk about non-hybrid seeds, etc., is downright silly. Most crops could be grown from seeds saved from last year's crop, if we had any way of doing that. Wheat, barley, a few other grain crops could be handled that way. But cotton? Tomatoes? Melons? No, without the existing full system, we just can't grow these things. And even if we could, why would we? No cotton gin? No tomato processing plant? No trucks to transport the fruit? You know, this modern farming business isn't anything like backyard gardening. Modern agribusiness is a system. It isn't a few hayseed plowboys out scratching in the dirt. It's just exactly like any other modern business. I don't know how to properly emphasize this- if the modern "system" goes down and stays down, the result will be a catastrophic famine. You won't make up the difference with garden tractors, rototillers, and hand labor. Again- please don't imagine that you can replace modern agribusiness with old-fashioned agriculture. You can't. You just flat-out can't. Don't fall for this "back to the land" delusion. I realize this goes against the theme of these discussion forums, but if you want an ongoing food supply, you would do well to do everything you can to keep the existing "system" going. And if it does go down temporarily, you'd better do everything possible to get it back up and running. I'm not talking about saving Social Security and food stamps. I'm talking about saving the power grid and banking. There will be no "soft landing," no "we'll survive somehow."
<...> Sorry for the long post. I thought you might like to hear from an actual farmer.
Date: August 09, 1997 02:01 AM Author: Geri Guidetti
Hi, Chuck and All, Because there is so much to say here, I will
interject comments in the original msg. I will mark my comments
with a few *****s....Geri
Answer- As a real-life farmer, I have to say that all this talk about non-hybrid seeds, etc., is downright silly. Most crops could be grown from seeds saved from last year's crop, if we had any way of doing that. Wheat, barley, a few other grain crops could be handled that way. But cotton? Tomatoes? Melons? No, without the existing full system, we just can't grow these things.
*****With all due respect, Sir or Madam, I do believe you have contradicted your own assertion that the talk about non-hybrid seeds is "downright silly." You follow-up with the very reasons why it is downright prudent, even essential. No, we CAN'T grow things like tomatoes or melons ourselves from year to year with hybrid seeds without buying more each time. Nor can we, with hybrid seeds, grow beans, beets, carrots, spinach, corn, cabbage, cauliflower, lettuce, peas, watermelons, zucchini, winter squashes, pumpkins, you name it--ANY of our food without purchasing seed year to year. You go on to say, "Without the existing full system we just can't grow these things."*****Surely you, as a farmer, don't believe that! Why of COURSE we can! Humans have been growing their own food for thousands of years, passing seed down from generation to generation--as wedding gifts, inheritances, etc.--and they were NOT hybrid. Where, Sir, do you think our seeds come from today? The hybrids were bred from non-hybrid seeds which were proudly and carefully preserved by families just like ours--just like yours. Humans have been able to feed themselves with agriculture BECAUSE they were not growing hybrids!*******I heartily agree with you that to keep the current agricultural system doing what it is doing today WILL require that "the existing full system" remain intact and THAT, Sir, IS the problem. The existing full system is a highly complex and now, globally interdependent system which is VERY vulnerable to disruption. The Y2K problem is only one of MANY potential Achille's heels, if you will. To name a few: a series of deadly plant blights that wipe out our increasingly genetically homogeneous food crops. These have happened many times throughout history. They are happening today as we speak. The same potato blight that resulted in the Irish famine is increasing here in the US and abroad. There is NO cure. Corn blight in the 40s and 50s wiped out almost all commercial crops. Survivors? Non-hybrid land-races of corn adapted to the blights from eons of evolution in a specific region. Bean Mosaic Virus was reported to be wiping out bean crops in Idaho THIS week. And even if we could, why would we? ****Hunger comes to mind. No cotton gin? No tomato processing plant? No trucks to transport the fruit? You know, this modern farming business isn't anything like backyard gardening.*****No it isn't, Sir, and it is a wonder to behold. Look at all the mouths we have been able to feed to date. BUT it is foolhardy, in my humble opinion, to believe that the "modern" aspects of this business--big machines, computers, sophisticated irrigation systems, complex fertilizers and hybrid seeds--in some way render it invulnerable to common, everyday, biological and climatic failures. Do you really think that the existence of this miraculous, modern agriculture in some way insures us against famine? That could be a fatal delusion. Modern agribusiness is a system. It isn't a few hayseed plowboys out scratching in the dirt. ****I prefer, Sir, to classify people who work the soil with their own minds, hearts, backs and seeds as noble laborers. They do literally earn their keep on this earth and it is generally better for their having been here. I know of no soil, no farm in this blessed country that has realized net improvement as a result of the "system" of "modern agri-business." When American pioneers went West to Iowa, for example, they wrote to loved ones in the East that the topsoil was 10-12 FEET deep. Today, the topsoil has been "spent" down to 8 inches or less in much of our heartland, the result of intensive, chemical based modern agriculture. Our miraculous green revolution--it is nothing short of that--has come at a great price. "Hayseed plowboys out scratching the dirt..." are not capable of inflicting that degree of harm in so short a time. Please be certain of this: we will not be able to continue the food production miracle on soil devoid of topsoil, devoid of life. The Piper WILL be paid, and I suspect in our lifetimes.
It's just exactly like any other modern business. I don't know how to properly emphasize this- if the modern "system" goes down and stays down, the result will be a catastrophic famine. ******Absolutely right!! And that is why we must spread the word far and wide that we must put food raising skills back in the hands of as many individuals as possible. In Sarajevo, a modern, sophisticated city at the time of the Olympics, many people survived the war and breakdown of all their production and delivery systems by growing food outside demolished buildings. The interviews were on the nightly news---at American dinnertime. You won't make up the difference with garden tractors, rototillers, and hand labor.*****You can feed YOUR family! YOUR loved ones. Your neighbor can feed HIS family, HIS loved ones. Will we feed Africa with our hand tools and tillers? Of course not. What I try to encourage folks to do is to become more personally self-reliant. Think of the effect if one in five was food self-sufficient or knew how. True famine could be averted. Again- please don't imagine that you can replace modern agri-business with old-fashioned agriculture. You can't. You just flat-out can't.
*******Who WANTS to?? That is not the goal. Don't fall for this "back to the land" delusion. ******This isn't about back to the land delusion. It is about survival in uncertain, possibly catastrophic times. I'll tell you what. You wait for the agribusiness system to come back up. I'll go out and do what I've been doing for 27 years. I'll scratch the dirt, plant and save my non-hybrid seeds and then I'll EAT.
I realize this goes against the theme of these discussion forums, but if you want an ongoing food supply, you would do well to do everything you can to keep the existing "system" going. *****The average Joe or Jane will have no impact, no ability to get the system up and keep it going. In the meantime, let them eat....cake? And if it does go down temporarily, you'd better do everything possible to get it back up and running. I'm not talking about saving Social Security and food stamps. I'm talking about saving the power grid and banking. There will be no "soft landing," no "we'll survive somehow." *****Maybe no soft landing, but with the right knowledge, tools, skills and SEEDS, we WILL survive somehow.
Sorry for the long post. I thought you might like to hear from an actual farmer.
And I am sorry if I sounded more passionate than I should--but I am--about this topic, I am. I am very concerned about our vulnerability and I believe we need to start one person, one family at a time. (BTW, capitalized words are for emphasis, Sir, I am not shouting at you.)
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Date: August 09, 1997 12:48 PM
Author: Robert Sturgeon
Subject: guilty as charged
I am the above-mentioned real-life farmer. I guess the best way to proceed is to say that we differ. I've been reading this weird anti-modernism for years, and I have made very few converts among those who are not involved with agribusiness. I don't think I will find many here, for sure! What you seem to writing about here is gardening on a large scale. I would be the last person to deny that such a program can provide some food for some people. And if Y2K turns out to be as bad as some think, that may be about all anyone can do. So go ahead. It can't hurt! But I'll bet anyone any amount of "cyberspace imaginary money" that every possible effort will be put into re-establishing commercial agriculture as a first priority. Compared with what we can do, your gardens will be relatively inconsequential. I don't mean to be putting your efforts at disaster preparation down. But the comparison between the megatons of food that we can produce with the few pounds you will get from your gardens just doesn't allow me to go along with your theories. But good luck to you anyway! Maybe some of you out there will, through your mini-farm efforts, gain a new appreciation of what farmers do.
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Date: August 10, 1997 03:57 AM
Author: Jim
Subject: Future Farms
Dear Dr. Sturgeon,
Again, you miss the point. Yes we all admit that none of us can replace the food produced by mass farming today. We do not intend to. The object is to simply keep our families and friends alive for that period of time it takes you wonder farmers to bring your system back online. Not one of us intends to produce mega-tons of produce. To be perfectly frank, my first priority will be to stay fed and to keep my kids from becoming poster children for some sub-Sahara dust bowl. My second priority will be to get you back to work. But if getting the big farms going again would cause harm to me and mine because I did not put the effort into our own supplies, then your big factory farm can go to Hell. You and the rest of the world will always be second choice to my family, and I believe that in this I can speak for everybody else. If you are offended then I suggest that you go look at your own family, then tell us where your priorities will lie. I do not understand the notion, that because someone wishes to be prepared for a collapse modern society, they are "anti-modernist". There will be very few anti-modernists on the Internet. I suspect your motives for disparaging people who would be more self-sufficient. If it does not hurt you for someone to be able to provide for himself/herself, then leave off, it is their right. If it does hurt you for me to become more self-sufficient, then great I hope more people try it.
Let people run their lives as they see fit. If you think they are fools, well and good. We are not the first and will not be the last, BUT it is our choice. Or it used to be.
Good Luck,
Jim
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Date: August 10, 1997 01:54 PM
Author: Robert Sturgeon
Subject: misunderstanding?
What we have here is a failure to communicate. Anyone who wishes to grow some food in a garden has my best wishes. That certainly is no threat to commercial farming- not now, not after a possible Y2K crash. That would be like suggesting that you could dig up some iron ore with a hand shovel, smelt it in your back yard, beat it into an iron pot, and be a serious rival to US Steel. So great- grow some food in your garden. Like I said, if the worst case scenario happens, it may save a few of you.
The "anti-modernism" I'm referring to is the irrational fear of irrigation, fertilizers and pesticides, not survivalism. This non-hybrid seed thing is just part of it. So by all means, get your non-hybrid seeds. Grow them without fertilizer or pesticides. Harvest your handfuls of produce. But I can't see how the re-establishment of commercial agriculture could interfere with your efforts any more than your gardening could interfere with mine. And I really don't understand this hostility to agribusiness except as a result of the successful propaganda war waged against us for about 40 years. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you...
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Author: Will Richards
NO BAIL OUT
Dear Dr. Sturgeon,
I am not sure that I speak for anyone else here, but I have some things to say to you as a fellow modern farmer. While I am not engaged in the same aspect of agribusiness as you, I do operate a small livestock farm. I also have extensive agricultural training in the dairy industry. I am not some back to the lander who thinks we should return to the last century. I know that we would have to starve a major portion of the population in the process. I especially am not an anti-modernist and spend countless personal hours resisting their ad ho post hoc rhetoric. In my opinion, if you really want to save the world from the ravages of mankind you will accomplish much more by shooting an environmentalist than by banning modern Agri-practices. I probably should delete that last line, but I will not, I am never going to be politically correct. Anti-modernists, Greens, Environmentalist are in my opinion just the same old power religionists in new religious garb. As you are aware the government is already anti-agribusiness and will be even more so in the near future. Thank you Al Gore, Man of the Biosphere. If he succeeds with his Man and the Biosphere crap, he will have succeeded where the Comitern failed. Complete government control of agriculture is already on the horizon. Just try to get a liquid manure permit in one of the areas targeted for the Man and the Biosphere Now that I have said that, we as farmers can lower our impact on the environment and not affect our production output, most of us are. I would guess that there are some things that you have already done to lower your environmental impact. Maybe even something the government did not order you to do. Note: I would use DDT if I could legally. I believe it to be the most effective insecticide ever made, and the safest. Now back to point. I am not advocating reductionist, anti-modern agriculture. Never have and I never would. I am advocating post Y2K planning. If we are right about what is coming then every square inch of serviceable, ground better be prepared for 1900's style agriculture. People had better be ready to plant victory gardens on a large scale. Those of us with the experience in agriculture had better come up with solutions to the problems before hand in order to assure our own survival and the survival of our communities. If we expect the government to have a solution to Y2K than we do not have eyes to see and ears to hear.
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Q: Help! How do I get rid of gophers in my garden? They have taken over!!
Carol, I could write books--they would be classified under "Humor" in the bookstore--about my ups and downs (occasional up, lots of downs) with gophers in my now 29.4 years of gardening. Let's see, I'll start with what finally DID work: the rifle I bought to shoot rattlesnakes in my Colorado gardens years ago. A 22. The only thing I can really depend on to get them.
Gophers were less deadly than rattlesnakes--unless you consider that they could leave you without any food in a bad infestation--but the snakes were easier to eliminate. Really!
Things I've tried with little or no success:
• The dogs. They get a few, but the damage they do digging down to the
The dogs. They get a few, but the damage they do digging down to thesecondary tunnel network 12 or more inches under your garden, killed more
plants than the gophers.
• My father. I set him loose with a 5-gallon tank of propane, flaked sulfur
My father. I set him loose with a 5-gallon tank of propane, flaked sulfurand a flame thrower the local farm store sold him as the "sure and only
cure". One hundred dollars later I had a father who, at nearly 70 years
old, had metamorphosed into a Caddyshack obsessive, had developed a chronic
cough from sulfur fumes, had burned the roots of one complete row of tomato
plants and two, 20-year old bay laurels. But Dad had a GREAT time! The
gophers are still chuckling over that "cure", and none of them showed up
dead from sulfur poisoning. None.
• The "black hole" trap. I'm no dummy. The gophers are even less dumb. Set
The "black hole" trap. I'm no dummy. The gophers are even less dumb. Setthe thing perfectly (I'm sure!) for two seasons, in both upper and lower
gopher tunnels. Not one. Not a single one trapped. I am fifty bucks poorer
and nothing to show for it. It LOOKED logical/effective/good in the ads.
• Steel spring traps you place in tunnels. Dad caught one in six years.
Steel spring traps you place in tunnels. Dad caught one in six years.VERY nasty to empty and reuse. VERY nasty.
• Chemical gopher bombs you light and put in their tunnels. In a good
Chemical gopher bombs you light and put in their tunnels. In a goodinfestation, there was not enough gas in the WWI arsenal to fill the
extensive, subterranean gopher network with any degree of toxicity. A 2
inch "bomb"? Ha! They didn't even abandon the local area we lit them in.
• SUCCESSFUL: I took my trusty 22 caliber rifle to garden. Did some quiet
SUCCESSFUL: I took my trusty 22 caliber rifle to garden. Did some quietweeding on my knees. Waited for the telltale "rattle-rattle" of my choice
tomato or other prize veggies being eaten from below. VERY, very quietly
tiptoed to my rifle. Tiptoed slowly, quietly, to shooting distance of the
hole through which he is pulling your plants underground. Stand, gun aimed,
with the patience of a cat (he did sense my presence) over the hole until my
eye caught sight of his yellow teeth in a mouth oozing with green plant
juices. "Don't blink, don't think. Fire." With each gopher, I only have one
chance. Once shot, he falls/pulls back into the hole by reflex.
THEN my dog went to work. She dug into the hole with my okay and pulled out the dead gopher. I did this over and over again. Takes PATIENCE. A waiting game. He has to think you are no longer there. In some cases I encouraged his surfacing by digging through the mounds and opening up his hole. He then surfaced to fill it up--a half-hour later on average-- but checked out the scenery for a brief second. Bam! Brings out the primitive in you :).....Geri Guidetti, The Ark Institute
Date: December 22, 1997 01:30 AM
Author: Geri Guidetti
Whew!! You guys (gender neutral) really know how to keep a girl up late at night. It would take yet another book to do these questions justice, but let's see if I can get this left brain in summary mode:
Gardening versus farming: a matter of scale, equipment and subjective at that. Gardening used to be done with all hand tools. Then came the wonderful garden-size machines like tillers that make possible gardens up to about an acre for a good, 8 hp tiller. The one acre size is often used as a "market garden", where excess produce is sold to locals. Still not a farm at that size, IMO. Above that size, you're looking at either bigger machinery or the old horse and plow. Yes, the Amish and Lehman's are good sources for the latter technology. "Modern" farms tend to grow lots of vegetables or fruits in monoculture, i.e., one variety of one type of veggie or fruit. A good food garden is composed of a vast variety of these food plants, often interplanted and in beds instead of rows.
How much to grow: Yes, you're right-- my consulting product, the Non-hybrid Seed Personal Food Security Program, tells you for how much to grow each vegetable covered, for each person in the family, but for those without it, let me give you some rough ideas based on my personal experience raising food for 3-4 people over the last 27 years. A quarter acre of good winter wheat grown well on good soil will yield enough to feed a family of four for a year. Double the size if it is spring wheat and/or on lousy soil or in a bad year. I always opt to err on the side of caution and grow too much. I've never had trouble donating the excess :). Legumes depend on the bean or pea. Ditto corn varieties. Note the quote, above, from one person's Program. About 0.6 acre needed for that bean I suggested. Fresh veggies and small garden fruits: I have personally grown--alone--my manual and some tiller labor--quarter acre gardens every year for at least 20 years. The earlier ones were about half that size, but you grow in ability over time and can take on more. Out of that quarter acre I harvest ALL of the vegetables and small fruits (grapes, blueberries, raspberries, blackberries, strawberries, cantaloupes, watermelons) that I have needed to feed a family that varied in size from 2-4 over the years. Most of that time I was feeding big appetites. I can and/or freeze all of the sauces, soups, jams, jellies, hot peppers, corn, broccoli, spinach, beets, sauerkraut, asparagus, green and golden beans, herbs, squashes, etc, that we need for a full year. I ALWAYS have food left over in jars to take us through at least a half year should there be no harvest one year. At least. Then there's all of the fresh lettuce and other greens, carrots, etc. For fresh and canned veggies and fruits, a well managed, well thought out and cared for quarter acre will feed four people veggies. This does NOT include wheat or legumes enough to sustain a strict, vegetarian lifestyle. If you have dairy or meat in your diet, the quarter acre will suffice IF done well.
Okay, you asked about required human inputs: I do that garden alone. I'm in my late forties, physically fit and maintain an exercise program year 'round to maintain the strength, flexibility, vigor that allows me to move right into the garden work again in spring. This personal info given to tell you that you can't expect to do heavy garden labor alone if you're not in shape because you will throw a back, stress a shoulder, etc. You'll be hurting and out of action in no time, and when eating depends on YOU, staying in shape is essential. To do a quarter acre when not experienced or in good physical condition, plan on two to three people to do all the work required. Also note that I am female and it is entirely feasible to maintain a garden this size even if you are. Despite being biologically predisposed to be smaller, weaker than males in general, the single women in this forum should recognize that they CAN do this if they have the wheat, flour corn or legumes needed for their fundamental protein base in storage or have a reliable source. But again, you have to be in shape and build muscle strength to maintain a self-sufficiency size garden.
Working smarter: I have learned to use mulches abundantly to keep the weeds at bay in my beds and for all of the other benefits of mulching. Reduces labor tremendously. Reduces the need for watering tremendously. See my Build Your Ark, Book I for all of this info. I let weeds in paths and fallow areas serve as green manures, turning them under or ripping them out and using THEM for mulches before they go to seed. I don't harbor any perfectionist aspirations. Nature doesn't grow things in perfect rows, garden to allow some of the wild things to grow willy-nilly. Of course you don't want them taking up too much valuable food space, but you can and should tolerate them to attract bees, birds, wildlife like toads, to get things into balance. It cuts YOUR work in the long run.
How much time in the garden? Again the quarter acre/single adult gardener model: when you know what you're doing, about 3-4 hours a day in peak season. Plan to work at sunrise to not later than 11 or so in the hot summer or you will burn out quickly in the heat of the day. Never underestimate your need for water for drinking in the garden in summer. You can get weak kneed and dizzy in a hurry if you get dehydrated, and sometimes you're not aware it's happening until it's too late. Get your straw hat THIS summer. Maybe buy a couple in case they don't get here from overseas in Y2K. Baseball hats don't cut it.
Processing time: Aug, Sept, and October can be madness as all of the vegetables come pouring into your garage/shed/ kitchen. NOW is the time to seek the help of family if you have them around. Or bring in a willing neighbor and exchange some of the finished product for their help. When in a tizzy with the abundance of these months, always say to yourself: "This, too, shall pass. This, too, shall pass. :)" If that doesn't work, remind yourself that this abundance is a blessing!
Water: Mulching reduces the need for it dramatically. See the book. Plan on a hose bib near or in the garden. If not possible, plan on a cistern or other pool/pond to collect water. Put trash barrels under each downspout to gather water if you have no steady source. Use gravity feed where possible or you will have no back left by the end of summer. No, you can't expect to hand water an acre of wheat or beans. There are drought resistant varieties you can use if your season is long enough. These are varieties used in the West for "dryland farming." I usually recommend a few of these in the Programs I do so you have food despite a low rainfall year. Yes, to the contributor who said where you garden/farm and on what soil is very important. Yes. But the biblical teaching, "Bloom where you are planted" could be inspirational here if you consider that many folks are unsure of where they will be "planted" come Y2K. I have "bloomed" in areas as diverse as the semi-arid plains of eastern Colorado and the gorgeous black loam of volcanic, northern Oregon. It CAN conditions, lighting, water, etc. I've said it elsewhere in this forum, but I think it bears repeating: if Y2K results in the worst- case or nearly worst-case scenario, you have two gardening seasons left till it all comes down. Two gardens. Please learn all you can now. Make your BIG gardening mistakes this year. Make a lot fewer next year. I will help you all I can.
Okay, I've probably missed some questions asked, so I'll go back and see, then post again.
Geri Guidetti
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Date: August 09, 1997 11:07 AM
Author: E Turner
Subject: Seeds
Look out Chuck - Geri's got the 50 cal out! I also read your post about how silly growing food might be, and I didn't understand it either. We've always grown food on our small lot and I think are the better for it. Her comments about the large scale farming are on the money. Sir James Goldsmith wrote right before his death that the farming as done today is one of the worst things that we could have done to ourselves. Not much different than the Social Security mess; take from the future generations. I hope Geri is right and we can return to a more nature friendly way of sustaining ourselves.
ET
Date: August 09, 1997 10:49 PM
Author: Geri Guidetti
I'm glad to hear that you, too, have grown food, Ed, and that you consider yourselves "the better for it." I know my family has reaped more rewards than what is canned in jars in our basement, yet I won't risk boring everyone with rantings about what gardens do for the cohesiveness of a family, the sense of purpose, value and achievement it instills, etc. Instead, I'll note for our "real farmer" that , despite a devastating drought here in north-central Maryland, we canned 18 quarts of thick tomato sauce last night. It includes our green and red peppers, onions, zucchini, garlic, basil and our own fennel seed. Tomorrow there will be at least 18 more quarts canned. That will be 36 quarts = 36 very nourishing meals over our stored pasta. Just before sitting down to the computer this evening, I canned 7 quarts of hot cherry peppers in vinegar. We picked all of the peaches off one tree yesterday---small due to the drought, but they will be excellent in pies and peach jam. There will be plenty for us and some to share. They will be transformed and stored in our basement by the end of the week. Ditto for the plums. I picked about 8 pints of fancy green beans right after dinner tonight. Yup, they must be processed tomorrow, Sunday, for jars in the basement.
The drought-shortened corn will yield smaller ears, but we will have corn. Lots of it will go into homemade vegetable soup and canned. The blackberries are at their peak--massive amounts for fresh eating, jam and yes, even my blackberry wine. Ditto raspberries. Blueberries are already preserved. Cantaloupes are ripening. Pumpkins are getting big. Must make sauerkraut from the cabbages this week and get that into quart jars. I'm getting tired thinking about it all, but I will not complain. It is all a blessing. All of this to say that even in a bad year, we are, once again, able to grow more than enough vegetables for both our fresh and year 'round eating. We do NOT depend upon the modern agricultural system to bring us this food. If we had a devastating year, it would be nice to know it's there, but we are not counting on it. Never have.
Just a few observations on what can be done to feed one's family when there are no outside resources. BTW, all of our food is grown with non-hybrid seeds....Geri Guidetti
Gardening Questions and Answers
